Frustration on the moor

[johnesmithson]

Got to the river 3 hours late thanks to M5 car park. Maybe that's where I left my mojo. But still: tried to be stealthy; varied my flies; varied timing of strike; varied everything for 5 hours. Trickle of flies hatching all afternoon (olives, sedges, then gnats and midges). Conversion rate of rises to hooked fish about 15:1. And that meant I had three to hand of up to 8 inches. Hmmm. I enjoyed the wild flowers though.

[halfstoned]

Commiserations Johnny, I always excuse myself missing fish on the Moor by telling myself they were all small ones! You must have fished well to get that many rises at least. It has been a strange season, I've witnessed a number of fish look like they've risen to the fly but not actually take it ( if I hadn't been so close I would have sworn it was a missed take). How have you got on with needle knotting the furled leader direct?

[terry]

Commiserations Johnny I am sharing your current pain. There’s me thinking it was me. Last outing on the west dart I nearly threw the rod in, the more rises I got the more my striking was “ too fast, too slow, to aggressive, not aggressive enough.” I’m beginning to think that this season is going to be as bad as last.
I did see a kingfisher though so all was not lost. Hopefully this recent rain will change things.

[johnesmithson]

Thank you both, I'm sort of glad to hear that it's not just me! If I was fishing a loch and this happened we would stroke our chins and declare that 'they're coming short'. That would prompt a change of fly (usually going smaller) which is what I did this weekend, and I did make brief contact when I offered my two smallest F-flies and Klinkhamers (sizes 18 to 20). But then you wonder how they don't hook themselves, because you feel initial resistance as you lift the rod, then ping! I wonder if I should have tried Duo or nymphs but the problem is that I was on that very weedy stretch of the Blackbrook and it would have taken a lot of nerve and skill to get the flies in the narrow channels and avoid getting snagged. The other solution is to wait for the weather to change which is what happened last night as you say Terry. I reckon later this week might be good for that reason...(ever the optimist)!! As for the needle knotted furled leader Chris, that has been a great success, but I did have to do re-do it more than a couple of times before I was happy that the loops had snugged down properly. That meant cutting off a short section of the furled leader each time. Of course you have to tie an overhand knot in the leader before you make the cut if you don't want it to become very unfurled in 2 seconds flat. I found a needle-knotting tool very good, and taught myself how to use it by watching some Youtube videos in slow mo. Then coated the joint with Loon UV Knot Sense, and it slides either way through the top ring very nicely with only a little bump. I find that really helpful now that I am consciously fishing a longer leader (12ft or more, including tippet)on a shortish rod (8ft). I've rigged up two of my lines this way, with furled leaders made by Luke Bannister (thread) and Mike Barrio (mono). The former comes with an in-built loop on the business end, the latter with a tiny tippet ring. The thread one is much limper and also needs to be well-coated with floatant, but they both give great turnover.

[Pete Tyjas]

I'm sure you have tried it but if I think fish are coming short/missing flies I change how my pattern sits in the water.

I'll often go for something like a pearl butt emerged that sits nicely in the film and can help give me a better hook up or at other times, something that will make the fish grab the fly a little more aggressively like a terrestrial or attractor pattern. The other thing to consider is trailing an unweighted fly behind the dry. This has bailed me out on occasion too.

[terry]

As a matter of interest what tippet do you guys use as I’m beginning to think that 3lb maxima ultra green that I have used for years is maybe not the best for low clear water and finicky fish. I have tried stroft gtm at 0.12mm but apart from the fact I find it a pain to thread it through a size 20 f fly I did not really see any great advantage. I have always preferred maxima as it straightens better into the ever present wind. Maybe trying to find an excuse but I’d hate to think I’m handy capping myself ( even more than normal)
Would appreciate any imputes/recommendations.

[johnesmithson]

Interesting Terry; I agree that Maxima Ultragreen is fantastic and use it pretty much exclusively for sea trout and salmon fishing on lochs. I probably should use it on the river too, but have been seduced by thinner stronger materials just in case the trout can see what is going on. But... although the Reflo Power that I have been trying recently (0.1mm for 2lb10oz or 0.13mm for 4lb12oz) does knot and straighten nicely, it is very shiny and I just wonder if it can cause a flash as it alights on the water. There are plenty of experts out there (for example Hayes & Stazicker) who argue that it's more important to have a longer stronger dull coloured leader with good presentation, rather than a thin shiny one. For the record, they favour Trouthunter (in 5x or 6x), which is a non-flash fluorocarbon. Interestingly, they recommend not putting any sinkant on the tippet at all when fishing dry flies.

[Pete Tyjas]

Although I haven't done the type of work Peter and Don (Hayes and Stazicker) did in researching tippet diameter etc but I have been fishing Stroft ABR in 4lb strength for the last 2/3 years. It is mainly because where I have been fishing I'm encountering some sizeable fish and had been broken by trout on 3lb RIO Suppleflex (due to fish size rather than any issue with the material)

I have to say I have not noticed any difference in catch ratio and have the added insurance of a little more strength. I've also used this on small streams and chalk streams and have found no issues regarding diameter.

I'm also one for not using sinking on leader and haven't done so for a number of years.

[terry]

Thanks Johnny I guess everyone has their favourite material e.g. Gerald Spiers ( Cornish guru) uses drennan sub surface which is thicker per poundage than ultra green and he does pretty well. I think there is much hype over tippet types and we can be easily loose the plot. Rightly or wrongly I do not use fluorocarbon at all for environmental reasons plus I find the ones I have tried to be brittle and have poor knot strengths, and I always degrease with a fullers earth mix. Could be why I catch bu***r all😄

[johnesmithson]

Just had a ‘doh’ moment: I think I must have been lining fish by casting almost directly upstream. I took some video on my last two outings and can see myself doing exactly that. Pete, I like your thoughts about how the fly sits in the film, and your suggestion to throw them something big or terrestrial if matching the hatch isn’t doing the business. So next time I’m up there I’m going radical with fly choice, I will try to find better casting angles and look very carefully at how the fly sits in or on the surface.

[halfstoned]

I have to admit that I fell for the advertising hype and have started using the trout hunter evo nylon. A bit expensive but seems pretty good to me, the strange thing is that it's advertised as perfect for dry fly fishing because it floats and then I treat the last foot or so with fullers earth to make sure it sinks???
To quickly return to missing so many rises, the first thing I check is to make sure my furled leader ( and the first ten feet or so of fly line) is still floating. If I dump it in front of me and some of it is under the surface ill replace the leader with a fresh treated one and wipe some floatant onto the fly line. I'm not sure how much difference it makes but I don't want the strike affected by having to draw the line up from under the surface when the fish takes. Other than that Johnny I would have done the same as you, smaller flies and ones that sit lower in the water without a large hackle in the way ( f fly, emerger etc..).

[Pete Tyjas]

Nice discussion!

I have to be honest and say that when it comes to leaders, all I'm looking for is the ability to turn over the fly I'm using at the time and to put some space between the end of the line fly line and my fly. Sometimes this can be a little farther but not always.

Funnily enough Terry, Gerald and I were fishing on Saturday. I was using a nymph rod and wanted to christen it as it had sat in a cupboard for a while. I hadn't a clue what the leader was that was on the reel but it had a dropper already tied on and so I was good to go. It seemed to work OK.

If I'm missing or not connecting with fish the first thing I am thinking is drift, infact, all I think I am ever concerned by is presentation and drift. I think drag or worse still, micro drag are more of a reason for a fish pulling out at the last second.

I rarely look at tackle as a reason I've not connected and do sometimes wonder that we might have been conditioned by the things we read and believe we need something new to make our chances of success improve. That might just be me though but having spent many years standing next to people on the river that it has given me an interesting insight but exploring new/different techniques is part of the fun!

[terry]

Great advise Pete as usual. I certainly agree that exploring new techniques is part of the fun and a big yes on NOT blaming the tackle.
Off to Fernworthy today for a bit of a change.

[boisker]

Going back to one of a pete’s earlier suggestions....
A couple of weeks ago on the Frome when I had a number of refusals or hooked very briefly I also fished an unweighted nymph... actually small curved hook with a rib of fine wire... about 12” behind the dry, so it fished just subsurface.... they smashes it all afternoon. I can only surmise they were more likely feeding heavily on rising nymphs with the odd rise to drys

First time I’d fished an unweighted nymph in a couple of seasons (no idea why, just habit i guess)... I’ve fished it a fair bit since, even when fish are intermittently rising... and definitely significantly increased my catch rate/numbers

If I am getting lots of missed hook ups, I also generally increase my leader length and try to put more slack in the cast....

[Pete Tyjas]

Thanks Terry, hope Fernworthy was good. I visited Colliford a little while ago. I suddenly realised it had been quite some time since I'd been there yet always really enjoy it.
I think there is often a tendency to get bogged down in technicalities that have minimal impact rather than thinking about getting the basic stuff right.

Boisker, nice thinking and pleased it worked. The drag free drift is king!

[terry]

Fernworthy was very good just happened to catch a great fall of Coch-y- bondhu on the north bank. Lost the first 5 fish and thought here we go again but things settled down and had 8 fish to 12” all on a foam beetle.
I haven’t been to Colliford this year and I’m with you I love the place.

[Pete Tyjas]

Sounds like a pretty perfect session. I'd forgotten how long it had been since I'd fished there and how much I loved it despite the fact it was freezing!
Here's the podcast I recorded there that also includes a great fly pattern that worked on the day.

Colliford podcast

I just released the day I had on the Tamar with Gerald that some might find interesting too.

Tamar podcast

[terry]

Thanks Pete two little gems. I’ve missed your podcasts keep them coming.

[Pete Tyjas]

I pleased you enjoyed those Terry, I've been releasing one every Thursday but omitted to post them here.

As this is the Devon forum here's one of me fishing the Taw Click to listen

One that means a lot and took a bit to record - My life in 10 fly rods

[terry]

I hope your not fed up with me singing your praises but I had to say how much I enjoyed your “10 rods pod cast” I’m a huge fan of John Gierach and have all his books ( apart from the one on poetry😝) and I’m so envious of you meeting Mike Clark an AK Best in the very cafe where Gierach has his breakfast. What a memory.
It also made me think about my rods and experiences. You mentioned Pete cockwell and many years ago when we lived in Surrey he taught my wife to cast and I agree what a nice bloke. I also had a Bob Church rod and fished with him on one occasion, another nice bloke.
One of my fond memories is regularly going into Veniards shop in Westerham Kent and making tea for John Veniard, John Goddard and Taff price. Great days for sure.
Enough of me wittering on. I am so glad you are feeling ok after what must have been a terrifying experience.
Stay well and keep the pod casts coming.