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Post by kevzim on Nov 19, 2014 12:45:00 GMT
So I have had a triple of blank trips to the river Usk a few years back in pursuit of salmon. 2015 is to be the year in which I bust my duck, and will focus on the Tamar and tributaries... Existing fly stocks include Allys Shrimps, Usk Grubs, Irish shrimps, Silk Cut shrimps, and assorted patterns sold to me by the lovely lady in the Usk fly fishing shop (Jean Williams?). However I wish to tie up a box of flies tailored to West Country rivers... Having spent a while reading, rereading catch reports in T&S, collating patterns that are reported I'm planning on tying up (sizes 6 - 12 plus tubes 1/2 to 2"): Black Dart Copper Dart (both because they're Devon patterns) Willie Gunn Stoats Tail General Practitioner Am considering Yellow Torrish and Mercer's Fancy - worthwhile??? Given my lack of experience/success I'd appreciate any constructive criticism on pattern choices or pointers to any glaring omissions. I also have a hankering to rifle through my SWFF fly wallets and pull out a selection of shrimp / prawn patterns, all of which look a lot more like the naturals and many of which have "life" from hackle or rubber feelers - is this a heinous faux pas? Cheers, Kev
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Post by JB on Nov 19, 2014 20:35:28 GMT
I've a feeling that too much choice can be a problem of itself so I've resolved to reduce my collection to Gold Willie Gunns on 1-1.5 inch copper tubes, purple cascades on 22m brass bottles, and GP Black and Silvers on size 11 salar singles. I would probably add a red flamethrower if I can get my hands on the materials.
I hooked and lost two salmon last season, both on the GPB&S so I've got faith in that as a low water pattern. Perhaps if we get some rain next year I might be able to figure out some patterns to use in other water heights too!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 8:18:10 GMT
Consider a Cascade in a variety of styles and weights. It is probably my best utilty fly.
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Post by kevzim on Nov 20, 2014 10:19:55 GMT
Thanks JB/GN. Much appreciated. I'll add some cascades to the box as well then, and look at the colour variants on the GP.
I agree with too much choice being a potential issue. I fear most of us fall into that trap early on in flyfishing career and then, as experience is gained, whittle it down to the patterns that work in the conditions on the day. However I am a salmon chasing novice so am trying to shortcut wasting too much precious time on the water.
Whasn't it Falkus that wrote something about "jumble all your flies in your hat, stick your hand in and fish with the one which embeds itself deepest in your finger?"
It seems that the common denominator is "shrimpy," "fiery (red/orange/yellow)" and mobility to give it life. More important I suspect is getting the size and weight right for the water height so that the fly can be put on the fishes' noses... and that will take me some time giving the flies a swim and staring discretely into pools with polaroids!
Cheers, Kev
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Post by JB on Nov 20, 2014 21:21:08 GMT
Thanks JB/GN. Much appreciated. I'll add some cascades to the box as well then, and look at the colour variants on the GP. I agree with too much choice being a potential issue. I fear most of us fall into that trap early on in flyfishing career and then, as experience is gained, whittle it down to the patterns that work in the conditions on the day. However I am a salmon chasing novice so am trying to shortcut wasting too much precious time on the water. Whasn't it Falkus that wrote something about "jumble all your flies in your hat, stick your hand in and fish with the one which embeds itself deepest in your finger?" It seems that the common denominator is "shrimpy," "fiery (red/orange/yellow)" and mobility to give it life. More important I suspect is getting the size and weight right for the water height so that the fly can be put on the fishes' noses... and that will take me some time giving the flies a swim and staring discretely into pools with polaroids! Cheers, Kev Please excuse the rough and ready photography/dressing, but this is what I think of as the GP Black & Silver. Thread: Black. Tail: GP tippet. Rear body: flat silver tinsel. Front body: black substitute seals fur. Rib: Oval silver tinsel. Hackle: Black cock. Wing: Black squirrel. I think Falkus did say something along those lines!
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Post by kevzim on Nov 20, 2014 21:48:20 GMT
Thanks for that. Nice fly, I'll knock a few up tomorrow whilst waiting for the top up gold tinsel delivery... looks like a silver arsed, hairwinged, Black Pennell. Like it. So you dress them on size 11s for low water. Think it'll have to be 12 for me as they're what I have on the bench. Much appreciated.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 8:33:51 GMT
I went through a phase recently of slimming my salmon fly collection down and I now only carry (note carry!) bring cascade, park shrimp, silver stoats tail, red francis, gold bodied willie gunn and claret pot bellied pig. As mentioned earlie these come in a variety of styles and weights. Has it improved my catches? I dont know but I feel a lot better for it!
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Post by JB on Nov 22, 2014 16:20:02 GMT
Thanks for that. Nice fly, I'll knock a few up tomorrow whilst waiting for the top up gold tinsel delivery... looks like a silver arsed, hairwinged, Black Pennell. Like it. So you dress them on size 11s for low water. Think it'll have to be 12 for me as they're what I have on the bench. Much appreciated. No problem, I think it's definitely more black pennel that GP - I first came across from the vice of Tim Smith at the Arundel and GP Black and Silver was what he called it. I really only use 11s because I have Salars in that size and they look pretty. On a standard 12 it might be a bit small for salmon but would make an excellent low water/dropper pattern for peal. I caught my first Taw sea trout on one as it goes, tied on a size 6 trout wet fly hook. They don't make the Salar hooks any more sadly, but I think the Partridge 01 Wilson in size 8 might make a reasonable substitute if you're so inclined.
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Post by kevzim on Nov 23, 2014 9:54:13 GMT
Brilliant pointers on the hook sizes too, thanks. Must admit I have a pretty motley collection of salmon hooks at present, seem to have picked up odds and sods at flyfairs and suchlike. I do have some 8s of some description.
Interesting that you observe a 12 is a bit small for salmon. I have over the years caught the vast majority of my largest trout on the smallest hook sizes. Granted that's a wholly different situation in that I'm targeting fish that are actively feeding, and that have grown large by being cautious feeders.
Is your observation based on concerns over hook hold of a size 12 being inferior to larger sizes or the subsequently smaller fly being less appealing/irritating to the salmon?
Cheers, Kev
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Post by JB on Nov 25, 2014 23:08:26 GMT
Brilliant pointers on the hook sizes too, thanks. Must admit I have a pretty motley collection of salmon hooks at present, seem to have picked up odds and sods at flyfairs and suchlike. I do have some 8s of some description. Interesting that you observe a 12 is a bit small for salmon. I have over the years caught the vast majority of my largest trout on the smallest hook sizes. Granted that's a wholly different situation in that I'm targeting fish that are actively feeding, and that have grown large by being cautious feeders. Is your observation based on concerns over hook hold of a size 12 being inferior to larger sizes or the subsequently smaller fly being less appealing/irritating to the salmon? Cheers, Kev The problem for me is that two hooks labelled size 12 can be very different sizes! I don't know very much about salmon, but I think they would take very small flies in low water down here. One of the two I lost this year bent out a trout hook, which has led me to prefer a proper salmon hook as I reckon it does have a better chance of standing up. Of course, if we're fishing tubes then the hooks are smaller anyway. And I know a salmon fisher who users micro-barbed single carp hooks with his tubes, which seem to be strong and have good hooking qualities. I honestly have no idea if smaller or larger is better, I would hazard a guess that it's a case of strength versus penetration (ooh-er). I do know that I like outpoint hooks for tubes and surface lures as these seem to stick better for me. To summarise; I don't know much!
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Post by kevzim on Nov 27, 2014 14:02:40 GMT
Good points again on the hooks(pun unintended). Interesting comment on carp hooks - I have a few in my tying box that I've used for saltw*ter flies in the past and they are strong enough (some of them are). I would think the single saltw*ter hooks would be suitable too but if you're going to do a job - do it properly. Salmon singles, doubles and a few trebles.
Oh - always wondered what the advantage of outturned hook points was - I figured it must be significant to warrant the multiple puncture wounds they cause at the vice!
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Post by kevzim on Dec 13, 2014 5:29:17 GMT
Well, the cascade suggestion has kept me busy - certainly plenty of variants to play with there. Amusingly, and without intending to, I seem to have tied a range of flies of different sizes and names that all fit very similar profiles and are all combinations of yellow, orange and black with a bit of "bling" somewhere. Goal for the weekend is to change the spectrum. Or maybe step a little to one side - which brings me to the point - Chartreuse.
Chartreuse is just about the most popular colour for flies in SWFF, the main arguments in favour being that it is highly visible to the fishes' eyes and is close to the colour of sandeels and similar baitfish that occur in the North Atlantic.
Given the feeding habits of Atlantic Salmon why is it that I don't see more chartreuse in the flyfishing / tying media? Any thoughts?
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Post by Pete Tyjas on Dec 13, 2014 16:44:22 GMT
Interesting post about chartreuse Kev.
There are a few more flies starting to appear with chartreuse in them as anglers think about how colour works not only as an attractor but also in differing water and weather conditions. Over the last year or so I have looked into UV, colours of flies and clarity of water and how colour affects fishing conditions both when fishing and from doing plenty of reading too.
Looking at things from a silhouette perspective first, if we look at sea trout flies for example, the prime colours tend to be silver, black and blue. Black gives us the great silhouette but blue is really interesting to me. We don't know if trout/salmon see UV as such but we do know that their eyes have cones and rods but they work differently to ours as our cones and rods work in conjunction where as salmonids work with either cones off or rods on or vice versa and so how they interpret colour is probably different.
One thing is for sure though is that colours at the blue/purple edge of the UV spectrum are proving successful in trout fishing at the moment. In the last two trips I have fished in the US purple and blue has been the stand out successful colour on trout flies. The Blue Copper John is one of the hot patterns right now along with the Purple Haze from a few years back. These colours are now popular again here over the last few years. I remember fishing a day a couple of years back with Toby where we used an F Fly with a purple dubbed body on a late, overcast and thoroughly miserable September day. The fish were all over it. Nothing is ever new though and purple was used back in the late 1800's in the Snipe and Purple pattern.
The reason they work so well and are so popular is that these colours show up better in low light or coloured water situations.
Purple is also considered a good back end salmon fly pattern too (think purple Allys and Andy Wrens Silk Cut Shrimp) this made me wonder if this is more a case of them being successful due to light and water conditions that we might encounter back end rather than say spring or summer.
Anyway, coming back to chartreuse at last. Green is essentially a mix of blue and yellow which may be more the way the salmonids eyes see it rather than green. Of course, none of us know the answer to this but it would fit better with the on/off way the cones and rods of fish work.
In a long winded way I guess I am saying it is certainly worth a crack but feel the chartreuse may be useful because of its colour relative to conditions rather than what the fish was feeding on at sea. But who knows, it is part of the reason we love it so much!
Pete
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Post by kevzim on Dec 13, 2014 17:42:19 GMT
Seems like we've been thinking and reading along many of the same lines. "Sparks" who appears on here from time to time did some good literature and lab work on colour perception in fish (more of a SWFF slant) a while back which jacked up our catch rates noticeably. I guess what I was pointing out was that chartreuse and the perception of it by fish is proven in the salt, and seems to be beginning to prove itself with migratory fish in fresh water... I've spent a lot of time looking out for chartreuse salmon flies today and have turned up a few atlantic specific patterns. Cross over into pacific salmon and chartreuse is everywhere. Also more prevalent in Scandinavia. Maybe we brits are a bit too catholic in our tastes. Purple is one that I don't have a decent stock of... other than three sizes of silk cut which will have to fill the gap for now. I don't think I have room for more fur and feathers after the past few weeks! Cheers, Kev
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Post by Pete Tyjas on Dec 14, 2014 8:44:36 GMT
Hi Kev,
Would be interesting to read what Sparks came up with. Yes, I've been reading a fair bit and spookily enough just finished an American book on the subject yesterday.
I believe the guys at Helmsdale have some patterns that have chartreuse in them. They seem to be near the forefront of fly development over here.
The Catholic taste bit is interesting too and it seems as though pattern development here hasn't changed a whole lot over the years with most new patterns being slight or subtle changes on tried and trusted recipes although of course, there are exceptions. I like some of the patterns from abroad too and always have a a Francis or two in red, purple and black.
I kind of like that, in a lot of cases, we fish in a conventional, traditional way but am pleased influences creep in from other countries too. We have seen tackle take big strides in tackle in recent times especially lines and rods. It allows us to cover and fish the water more efficiently. I'd be interested to know how many anglers are now using Scandi or Skagit lines vs DT lines or if they have these modern lines as part of their arsenal in case weather/water conditions dictate it.
I wonder if confidence is a factor in fly choice/selction/tying too? It wasn't so long ago that Allys shrimp was catching a lot of salmon (probably still is). I guess a lot of this was because a lot of people were using it but I have always wanted to try and do some sort of "fish off" with Allys vs General Practioner a fly that was probably the basis for Ally.
I know I don't have a lot luck with the Allys but I don't tie it on much so I doubt that I will but I love the Cascade especially on the Taw.
Perhaps part of it is that we don't have a lot of fish to road test flies on and so it makes more sense to tie on a fly with a well proven track record rather than something shiny and new?
Interesting stuff.
Pete
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Post by terry on Dec 14, 2014 15:41:18 GMT
Kevin / Pete,
I find this really interesting, especially on a miserable rainy day. I don't personally fish for salmon but I guess you can apply these thoughts to any species. I am a firm believer in having total confidence in the fly you are fishing but I still enjoy a bit of experimentation especially at the fly tying bench. One thing I have found is that I never give any new wonder flies a decent swim, I tend to revert back to my old favourites probably too quickly. Many years ago when I lived up in Sussex I was fishing Weirwood reservoir in a very strange early evening light. Having had no joy with the usual stuff I opened up my fly box and could not believe the amount of fluorescence that was coming off one fly. If memory serves it was a nymph that I had tied after reading an article by Gordon Fraser. It was bright pink and looked revolting but I had to give it a go and I could not believe the offers I had. I finished up with 4 good browns and 2 cracking rainbows in under an hour. I had been there the best part of a day. I guess this was down to a certain UV light but who knows.
Great stuff keep up the quest.
Terry
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Post by Pete Tyjas on Dec 14, 2014 16:24:09 GMT
Hi Terry, Interesting point and think the confidence factor is a massive part of it. For me, the Hares Ear patterns don't work well but the main reason is that when I do tie one on I don't feel confident and so snip it off again probably too quickly. Recently though, I have blended hares ear and some purple ice dubbing (about 60/40 HE to Ice dubbing) and the fly has caught me a lot of grayling so far and has hardly been off my leader. Nice to hear the pink worked, do you recall how deep you were fishing the fly? The reason I asked was that I was talking to JB today and meant to say in the earlier post that the purples and blues show up in a dark sky and in deeper or coloured water too. I wrote in a piece in Eat, Sleep, Fish a while back about the parachute coachman and said that I'd used red ice dubbing instead of silk but have also used purple and it has been very successful. eat-sleep-fish.co.uk/content/2014/05/searching-troutI recently bought a bunch of materials from Toby and plan on tying up nymphs with a body based around blue. I've tried blue as a thorax with some good success. Pete
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Post by terry on Dec 14, 2014 17:00:57 GMT
Hi Pete,
I was fishing the nymph just sub surface. If I remember there were hardly any fish moving at the time which made it all the more amazing. I have not fished the fly since or can even remember the exact tie but I might try and resurrect it and give it a swim on the Duchy next year (please forgive me Lord as I know not what I do.) Only 91 days to go and counting.
I did read your article in ESF as I do every month. Incidentally I think what you do with this is brilliant and I look forward to every month although it frightens me how quickly the issues seem to fly past.
Terry
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Post by Pete Tyjas on Dec 15, 2014 8:50:29 GMT
Hi Terry,
First off, thanks for the ESF comments, it is hugely appreciated and means a lot when people say that they have enjoyed it so thank you!
Secondly, interesting to see you how you fished it too.
I was thinking back about a pink shrimp that I used to fish on the Wylye many years ago. Pink is nothing new when it comes to grayling, this thing though was super bright pink and I used to get a bit of friendly stick about it. It did work really well but was heavily weighted and so I fished it deeper. Being a chalk stream the water was a lot clearer than say the Taw and so perhaps these sorts of flies do stand out a lot more even if they are not at the end of the spectrum that does show up better in low light/darker conditions.
What we regard as crystal clear water though often appears different when you are actually in it. For the last few years I have been meaning to don a mask and dive down in the pool by Eggesford bridge to see what is lurking down there and how the pool looks from a fish lie point of view as there are some pretty complex currents and back eddies.
I'd try and replicate the fly again and give it a go to see how it goes, let us know!
Coming back to Kevs original post for a sec, JB has just leant me Lani Wallers "A Steelheader's Way" It looks a really interesting book with some amazing photography but having had a quick flick through it I was really interested to see the amount of purple in the dressings but also came across a dressing for the Peacock Spyder that has a chartreuse floss body tied over silver Mylar and a hackle of blue peacock breast feather. Think it might be of interest Kev?
Pete
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Post by paul on Dec 15, 2014 14:18:31 GMT
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